Episode 104: White Christmas
Guests: Lisa Williams - Circle Leader, SURJ of Northeast Indiana
https://hoosleft.us
https://surj.org/
SURJ Northeast Indiana Circle: Facebook
Happy Holidays and welcome to the HoosLeft Podcast, a show about Indiana politics, history, and culture from an unapologetically leftist perspective. My name is Scott Aaron Rogers and I’m recording from Bloomington.
President Lyndon Baines Johnson once said - and I apologize for the antiquated language, “If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”
The sentiment behind that quote is the defining political fault line in this country for the last several generations - if not for the entire history of this nation. During his time in office, Johnson was responsible for ushering the Cilivl Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, and the Fair Housing Act through Congress. And you can draw a straight line from the backlash to this progress right on through to the white nationalist administration of Donald Trump and our current crisis.
Richard Nixon operationalized it through the Southern Strategy, deliberately turning racial resentment into an electoral weapon. Instead of asking why wages were stagnating or why unions were being crushed, white voters were taught to fear desegregation, crime, and social change. Government didn’t fail them — those people took what was theirs. The result was a political realignment built on grievance instead of material improvement, with white Southern Democrats beginning to flock to Republicans in droves.
Ronald Reagan perfected the formula. He wrapped it in patriotism, free markets, and the myth of a “shining city on a hill.” Blaming “welfare queens” and “young bucks” getting a handout while “real Americans” worked harder for less, the B-list actor and corporate pitchman sold working class whites the hypercapitalism that would shutter their factories and decimate main streets. While taxes were cut for the wealthy and public goods stripped for parts, the wealth class pointed the finger at “those people.” Working-class white voters were encouraged to identify upward, not sideways — to defend a system that was actively hollowing out their own communities.
Donald Trump didn’t invent this politics. He just stripped away the euphemisms. The resentment was no longer coded; it was shouted. A dog-whistle became a bullhorn. Immigrants, protesters, trans people, city-dwellers, elites — the targets shifted, but the function stayed the same. Keep people angry at each other, and they won’t notice who’s picking their pockets.
That’s the political environment Lisa Williams is organizing inside.
Lisa grew up poor in rural Indiana. She understands how economic precarity, racial narratives, and political cynicism get woven together — concocted in think tanks and institutes then debated in kitchen tables and break rooms. Her work with SURJ, Showing Up for Racial Justice, isn’t about shaming people or winning arguments online. It’s about breaking that cycle — organizing white working-class Hoosiers into multiracial solidarity by helping them see how race has been used to divide people with shared material interests.
In the following conversation, we’ll talk about how that work actually happens - taking risks, making mistakes, learning, growing and making amends. And we’ll look at what it takes to build trust in communities that have been lied to for decades. It’s not theoretical. It’s practical. And in a state where division has been weaponized as policy, it’s some of the most serious political work being done. But, I do have a laugh for you if you stick around ‘til the very end.
Real quick before we get to the interview, a big ask. This is an independent media project; I don’t paywall content; I don’t sell out to advertisers; I don’t have billionaire benefactors. Only individuals like you keep this thing going. I refuse to gatekeep valuable information in the middle of a political crisis, even to my financial detriment. So please, if you find value in this work, go to HoosLeft.us and subscribe at the paid level - it’s only $5 a month, or $50 a year, to help me write more, research more, and organize more. But wait - from now until the end of the year, we’re running a Ho Ho HoosLeft Holiday Special and you get become a paid member for 30% off. That’s right - only tree fiddy a month or $35 for the whole year. Not ready for long-term commitment? You can make a one-time contribution on Cash App or Venmo. Links are in the show notes. Look, it is my sincere hope to turn this thing into a full-time progressive media outlet to pop the bubble of right wing disinformation in the state, but I need your financial support to do so.
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Now, here is my conversations with Lisa Williams.
Note: the following interview was recorded before Indiana Senate Republicans rejected Trump’s redistricting ploy and references the gerrymandering fight in future tense.
In the Interview (times approximate)
1. Origin Story — Poverty, to Political Awakening — 6:00
Grew up poor in Steuben County, later moved to DeKalb County.
Early understanding that politics determined whether her family had heat, food, stability.
Township trustee assistance was formative in understanding government power.
Ran twice for township trustee herself; former county party officer.
Currently organizing with SURJ (Showing Up for Racial Justice).
2. Family, Party Identity & Strategic Racism —9:30
Shocked to learn her father voted Republican despite family hardship.
Begins unpacking how race is used to split working-class voters.
Over time, conversations move him left; he eventually votes Bernie Sanders in the primary.
Personal loss (father’s death) grounds her politics emotionally, not ideologically.
3. Bernie 2016 & Entering Organizing — 12:30
Bernie’s campaign articulated what she already lived.
Calls county chair and asks how to help.
Starts with social media and grassroots support.
Inspired by post-2016 organizing energy and the rise of AOC-style politics.
4. Wearing Multiple Organizing Hats — 15:00
Appointed to Indiana Democratic Party Rural Issues & Small Towns Task Force.
Engages with Working Families Party nationally (no Indiana chapter).
Participates in DSA spaces; invited by Jesse Brown to Central Indiana DSA events.
Actively searches for organizing models that work outside urban bubbles.
5. National Work & Political Moment — 18:00
Phone-banking in Virginia, sees same economic anxieties as Indiana.
Notes growing national left momentum despite Trump-era authoritarianism.
Framing this moment as dangerous — but also strategically open for organizing.
6. Strategic Racism & the Origins of SURJ — 20:00
Explains how racial resentment has been deliberately weaponized since the post-Civil Rights era.
Pushes back on Tea Party mythology; names Koch-funded backlash politics.
SURJ founded in 2009, mentored by SNCC veterans, to organize white people against racism as a class weapon.
7. What SURJ Actually Does — 24:00
Not white saviorism; not guilt politics.
Focused on building multiracial working-class solidarity.
Helps white working-class people identify who is actually picking their pockets.
Rejects “helping the less fortunate” framing in favor of shared material interests.
8. Organizing Tactics: Noncooperation & Deep Canvassing — 27:00
Economic pressure campaigns (Amazon boycott, No Kings actions).
Explains why disruption matters more than moral persuasion.
Deep canvassing model: ask questions, surface values, avoid debate traps.
Works canvassing in Indiana, Virginia, and New York (Zohran Mamdani race).
9. Immigration, Decarceration & Personal Stakes — 33:30
ICE noncooperation and immigration defense trainings.
Difficulty explaining immigration issues to white Hoosiers who don’t feel immediate impact.
Entry into SURJ through decarceration work in 2020.
Father’s incarceration, fines, and economic punishment shaped her politics.
10. MAGA, Policing & Misplaced Anger — 39:00
Overpolicing is a class issue, though racialized.
Working-class whites experience state violence too, but are misdirected politically.
MAGA identifies real pain but assigns false villains.
SURJ works to redirect anger toward power, not neighbors.
11. Democratic Party Failures & False Choices — 42:30
Clinton-era neoliberalism broke trust with working-class voters.
Carville-style messaging misses material reality.
Rejects “ditch the woke stuff” framing.
Economic and social justice are inseparable.
12. Building Infrastructure & What Comes Next — 48:00
SURJ Circle model: small, flexible, locally grounded groups.
About 40 people currently connected; participation rotates.
Geographic challenges across Steuben, Allen, DeKalb counties.
Training organizers ahead of 2026; encouraging people to run for hyperlocal office.
Upcoming actions and where to find SURJ.
Once again, SURJ’s Northeast Indiana circle leader Lisa Williams on the politics of white racial resentment and how we overcome it to build working class solidarity.
As SURJ says on their website, “as white people, we are going to make mistakes when doing racial justice work. It’s inevitable.” But these are risks worth taking.
People of color take risks every day just by living in white supremacist world. The least we can do is challenge ourselves to get outside of our comfort zones. Say the weird thing. Ask the stupid question. And if you fuck up, apologize. Learn. And grow.
And while we should do this work simply because it’s the right thing to do, even if you’re a selfish prick, toppling white supremacy benefits you too. There is a big, beautiful, multicultural house in our collective future. Will you share it? Or burn it down? You know, we’ve been taught to celebrate money and power, when the wealthy and powerful don’t give a damn about us - white or not. As the brilliant writer Zora Neale Hurston once said, “all my skinfolk ain’t kinfolk.”
That’s all for now. No new episode next week with the Christmas holiday, but HoosLeft This Week goes on, this weekend and next on YouTube, Facebook Live, and of course at HoosLeft.US. Indiana’s most thorough weekend Sunday news and politics talk show, it’s a lot of fun - if you can call following the news in this timeline fun. My panel and I go “around the corn” to cover all the week’s top Indiana news stories and look at US and international happenings through a Hoosier lens. I hope to see you there in the comments, but if you can’t make it live, the program will be available for download later Sunday afternoon. This week, guests include Dr. Rob Stone of Physicians for a National Health Plan. Just in time, as health insurance rates are about to skyrocket for tens of millions of Americans.
Thanks again to Lisa for this interview, for doing the work in her community, and for modeling solidarity. And thank you for listening. I promised you a laugh, so stick around after the show for a HoosLeft Christmas carol. But first, one last reminder to please consider contributing to this project with a paid subscription at HoosLeft.US, where you’ll find my entire archive. I rely solely on the generosity of kind patrons like you to make this information available for free to everybody. In addition to the website, you can find me on Bluesky, Instagram, and Threads at HoosLeft.US and on Facebook, X, TikTok, Mastodon, and YouTube at HoosLeft. Direct message me at any of those sites with feedback, tips, ideas, and concerns or email me at scott@hoosleft.us. While you’ve got the old email machine out, please forward the show to a friend and have them pass it on, too. Let’s keep building this project - and a truly democratic state - one conversation at a time. Until the next one, this has been the HoosLeft podcast. I’m Scott Aaron Rogers. Happy Holidays, Indiana.
